From: tuning@onelist.com
To: monz@juno.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:14:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TUNING digest 1601

			    TUNING Digest 1601

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Tuning and timbre of acoustic keyboard instruments
	by Carl Lumma 
  2) Bram's Diamond
	by Carl Lumma 
  3) Re: Bram's Diamond
	by bram 
  4) Tuning List CD comments
	by "John Loffink" 
  5) Re: Tuning List CD comments
	by Gary Morrison 
  6) Rayna software
	by Daniel Wolf 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Topic No. 1

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:17:11 -0800
From: Carl Lumma 
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: Tuning and timbre of acoustic keyboard instruments
Message-ID: <19981203171702015.AAA327@nietzsche>

>Okay, but the other things were far from equal. On early keyboards, the
>guage used for the wire was narrower, so they would have behaved more like
>ordinary strings than does modern piano wire.

I seriously doubt that the wire back then behaved more like ideal strings
than modern wire.  It was full of inperfections, leading to false beats,
and all the rest.

>Further, I recall seeing sonograms from both IRCAM and Robert Cogan
showing >that the amplitude of the partials above the fundamental in
harpsichords, >clavichords and fortepianos was, overall, higher than in
modern pianos, so I >would suspect that sensitivity to tuning vis-a-vis the
overtone stucture >would have actually been higher. 

Harpsichords may have the best harmonics of the bunch, from any era (of
course, today's harpsichords are woefully similar to those made hundreds of
years ago), but clavichord timbre has the least harmonic, weakest, and
funniest amplitude envelope of just about any keyboard timbre imaginable.
It is unusable for ratios above the 5-limit, and the difference between
meantone and equal temperament (if you can set it at all!) is hardly
noticable.

To me the overwhelming difference between fortepianos and modern pianos is
the fact that the former are single or double strung, whereas the latter
are triple strung.  Take that away (as Michael Harrison did), and you'll
find that the tension, diameter, and everything else about the modern piano
outshines the fortepiano as far as harmonicity and sensitivity to tuning.

>I may also add, as a bit of music-cultural speculation, that the creation
of >the the tuning profession probably had a net effect of densensitizing
>players to the quality of keyboard intonation.

I'll agree with that!

Carl

------------------------------

Topic No. 2

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:56:39 -0800
From: Carl Lumma 
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: Bram's Diamond
Message-ID: <19981203175550250.AAA463@nietzsche>

>The corrected diagrams are as follows:
>
>         5:4---------3:2
>         / \'-.   .-'/ \
>        /   \  7:4  /   \
>       /     \ /|\ /     \
>      /       X | X       \
>     /       / \|/ \       \
>   5:3------/--1:1--\------6:5
>     \'-.  /.-'/ \'-.\  .-'/
>      \  7:6---------7:5  /
>       \  |  /     \  |  /
>        \ | /       \ | /
>         \|/         \|/
>         4:3---------8:5
> 
> 
>         5:4---------3:2
>         /|\         /|\
>        / | \       / | \
>       /  |  \     /  |  \
>      / 10:7--\---/-12:7  \
>     /.-'  \'-.\ /.-'/  '-.\
>   5:3---------1:1---------6:5
>     \       \ /|\ /       /
>      \       X | X       /
>       \     / \|/ \     /
>        \   /  8:7  \   /
>         \ /.-'   '-.\ /
>         4:3---------8:5
>
>
>Ok ... I think I got 'em right that time.

They seem to be, except that you've got it so major triads and tetrads
"point down" and minor's "point up".  Also, aren't the X's misplaced?


>This tuning has a number of interesting properties.

Bram, are you aware that this is the 7-limit tonality diamond?


>However, I think it makes a *lot* more sense musically to instead
>remove unity, and play a chord consisting of 2,1, and 1/2 as a drone
>(maybe throw 4 and 1/4 in there for good measure.)

Well, it depends, but I woudn't say "a lot"...

If we are playing the diamond one note at a time over a drone, and this is
an interesting idea, I would prefer to have an 11 or 15-limit diamond.

If I was stuck with a halberstadt keyboard (as you seem to imply) for
melodic use over a drone, I woudn't use the diamond at all.

If I had to put 12 notes of the 7-limit diamond on an instrument, with the
intention of ever playing more than one note at a time, I would *not*
choose to cut the 1/1, as this is one of the common tones in all of the
scale's common-dyad tetradic modulations.

Carl

------------------------------

Topic No. 3

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:58:16 -0800 (PST)
From: bram 
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: Re: Bram's Diamond
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Carl Lumma wrote:

> >Ok ... I think I got 'em right that time.
> 
> They seem to be, except that you've got it so major triads and tetrads
> "point down" and minor's "point up".  Also, aren't the X's misplaced?

Uh, the X's are meant to be ascii art (a / and \ overlapping)

> >This tuning has a number of interesting properties.
> 
> Bram, are you aware that this is the 7-limit tonality diamond?

No I wasn't, although  that doesn't surprise me, it's a very compelling
idea.

> >However, I think it makes a *lot* more sense musically to instead
> >remove unity, and play a chord consisting of 2,1, and 1/2 as a drone
> >(maybe throw 4 and 1/4 in there for good measure.)
> 
> Well, it depends, but I woudn't say "a lot"...
> 
> If we are playing the diamond one note at a time over a drone, and this is
> an interesting idea, I would prefer to have an 11 or 15-limit diamond.

I was thinking in terms of one instrument playing the drone making some
sort of rhythm and another one playing notes from the diamond.

You're probably right about a higher-limit diamond being preferable. If
I'm not mistaken, the 11-limit diamond only has 20 notes in it and the
13-limit one only has 30, so using them might be pretty reasonable.

At the moment I'm trying to think how the same structure might be
applicable to tones with more setharian properties.

-Bram

------------------------------

Topic No. 4

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:36:46 -0600
From: "John Loffink" 
To: 
Subject: Tuning List CD comments
Message-ID: <009001be1f3f$c918d0c0$341990d1@x2k5x9>

As a participant on the Tuning List CD I have some comments below, but first
I'd like to thank Neil Haverstick for suggesting the idea and congratulate
him for having the gumption to carry it out.  I hear that it's quite unusual
for a project like this to be completed in the short time (< year) that it
was done.

Recommendations for future tuning list cds:
1.  Track timings need to be listed on the cd tray backside label (very
important for disk jockeys).
2.  Some kind of graphics for the front jacket are a virtual necessity for
retail.  Looking at a local store with a number of independent releases,
full color seems to be the norm.  If this is to be an ongoing series, then
some sort of consistent format would be beneficial as well.
3.  Speaking of retail, I would like to propose a collaboration of sorts in
the distribution and promotion of microtonal music.  There are two stores in
Houston where I have placed the tuning CD as well as one mail order source.
They should be open to other microtonal cds.  There are also two local avant
garde radio programs that will play microtonal music.  Some of the cd
participants have their own cds available and could surely benefit from this
information, and I'm sure they have resources of their own they could share.
I am volunteering to compile this information and then supply it to anyone
on the tuning list who wants it.  I welcome input from anyone, not just
participants on the cd.
4.  The following may not go over too well, but I received a very direct
comment from one retailer that a sampler cd needs to have a consistent feel.
If a few tracks sound out of place, the listener is tempted NOT to listen to
the cd repeatedly.  I know we pride ourselves in being a varied lot, but it
might be more beneficial in the long run for cds to specialize in certain
areas, say one is avant garde, the next pop oriented, the next world music,
etc.  The hard part would be getting enough participants for each
"category," and in some cases determining which category pieces should fit i
nto.
5.  It might be easier if the cd production isn't a one man show.  For
instance, the graphics don't necessarily have to be done by the same person
who handles the mastering.

John Loffink
jloffink@pdq.net

------------------------------

Topic No. 5

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:05:14 -0500
From: Gary Morrison 
To: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: Re: Tuning List CD comments
Message-ID: <3667C1DC.F3B749ED@texas.net>

> As a participant on the Tuning List CD I have some comments below

   Let me stress first and foremost that, to the degree that what John Loffink
or I are saying below constitutes criticism of Neil's work, in my view, I think
that these are very minor concerns compared to the overwhelmingly positive
overall nature of this CD.

   On a related note, I've been waiting for a noncontributor to review the CD.
Since this hasn't happen, you folks will probably see my review shortly.





> 2.  Some kind of graphics for the front jacket are a virtual necessity for
> retail.

   Basically I agree, but I suspect that Neil's response to that would be that
it does have graphics, that intentionally being the very essence of simplicity,
or perhaps that ... "generic" for lack of a better word ... look.

   Personally, I can see either side, probably agreeing more with John than
Neil (or at least the above guess of Neil's opinion).  If I were to take this
essence-of-simplicity approach, I would have done either or both of three
variants on what we have:  Reverse-field (white letters on a black background),
or have the title written on an ascending diagonal across the cover, and/or
half-toning (grays) of the letters or background.

   Also, I probably would have made a minor variant on the subtitle:  Rather
than "tuning@onelist.com:  a microtonal music experience", I would have
suggested, "tuning@onelist.com:  The Experience".  That in analogy with
the ride at the Universal Studios theme park "Back to the Future:  The
Experience", and similar subtitles.





>  Looking at a local store with a number of independent releases,
> full color seems to be the norm.

   I think we'd all agree that color would be very highly desirable, but not
exactly cheap either.  But it's worth pointing out that one-color (actually 2
colors counting black) printing is not a WHOLE lot more expensive than black
and white.



> 4.  The following may not go over too well, but I received a very direct
> comment from one retailer that a sampler cd needs to have a consistent feel.

   To me, and to all of the people who've commented to me on the CD, the
variety is more positive than negative, but I understand what John's getting at
here.  Also I doubt if, ultimately, Neil had the realistic option to reject
submissions for other than strictly musical grounds.



> 5.  It might be easier if the cd production isn't a one man show.

   That is presumably true.  As I understand it, Neil wanted to do it all so
that he could get a taste of the production end of the recording biz.

   The other consideration, of course, and I'm sure John and all of us would
agree, is that it takes a great deal of dedication to produce a CD, and we're
very fortunate to have a man of Neil's level of dedication to volunteer to put
it all together.

------------------------------

Topic No. 6

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:43:01 -0500
From: Daniel Wolf 
To: "INTERNET:tuning@ella.mil" 
Subject: Rayna software
Message-ID: <199812041043_MC2-627B-3A4@compuserve.com>

I'm looking for a PC port of the RTMP program for controlling a Rayna
Synthesizer. It's getting tough to expect gallerists to find Atari STs fo=
r
installations these days! Please answer privately.

Daniel Wolf
DJWOLF_MATERIAL@COMPUSERVE.COM

------------------------------

End of TUNING Digest 1601
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